zigguratbuilder ([info]zigguratbuilder) wrote,
@ 2006-01-06 14:01:00
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I Love RPGNet, I Hate RPGNet
"vBulletin Message

The server is too busy at the moment. Please try again later."

I've been a core RPGNet fanboy since, what, 1999? 6 years. Wow. RPGNet literally saved my gaming. If not for that, and spiralling off into that and the Forge community, I'd still be buying and reading White Wolf games and not playing anything.

Anyway, for a few years I was a "Paying Member", putting in my due for all the good it's been doing for me. But lately, I dunno. It seems that they're digging a hole that they don't want to address. It's killing the site, and no one wants to do anything about it.

Basically, Tangency. It's got well over 2x the amount of threads and posts of any other forum on the site. That is, the RPG-related ones. Most of the time a flamewar brews out of control, users are banned, and lots of meta-discussion generated, it's all been on Tangency (check the Trouble Tickets/Admin Cesspool" forums for a detailed record). It takes the most work to police. It generates a huge amount of traffic not really gaming related at all.

I love(d) Tangency, posted to it all the time. I still get a lot of fun news and links from that forum, and still consider it a core of the site... but man, it's a tumor that's jamming the works. The admins turned off Search functionality on the entire site to try to relieve traffic (which was a huge imposition. Hell, I would have become a paying member again if Search was allowed for paying members). But man, with all the traffic spikes lately, and all the bitching about moderator decisions in Tangency threads... Tangency's got to go.

Not altogether, mind you. Just off the friggin box that holds the rest of the site. If it's on a NetApp or EMC box, create a new volume for Tangency. If it's a Lin/Sol system, move tangency to another box. Route that traffic to something like tangency.rpg.net, use the same phpBB user DB so that the login is seamless. Just distribute the DB a little.

It seems that the admin (ie the actual people that do code updates and the like) are willing to shoot down all sorts of ideas coming from the public, from full time DB administrators, coding experts and the like (which I am certainly not), dismissing them with a, "Yeah, thanks for the input, but I think we've got it under control." (but usually with more snark, like "Yeah yeah, now run along little boy. The adults over here have the keys to the box, and we know what we're doing" flair). And yet nothing's changed in a year.

Sigh. If I hit the lottery, I'd basically recreate rpg.net right down to the forum structure, and even keep Tangency... but move Tangency to a distributed DB. RPG talk gets the highest-costing, fastest rig, and Tangency gets put on the Ultra 10 in the corner. Man, I still love RPGNet but this shit is far beyond old.

-Andy

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-06 07:19 pm UTC (link)
Oh, getting the other one now:

"There seems to have been a problem with the database.
Please try again by clicking the Refresh button in your web browser.

An E-Mail has been dispatched to our Technical Staff, whom you can also contact if the problem persists.

We apologise for any inconvenience."

Sure, some of this is due to random DOS attacks and the like from Chinese hackers polishing their chops, but still, reducing the traffic to one box by distro-ing the DB would cut a lot of fat out.

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[info]matt_snyder
2006-01-06 07:21 pm UTC (link)
I have been a fan of RPG.net for at least 6 years, probably close to 7 or more (can't remember!). I used to have a column there. I went as "official" RPG.net reporter to GenCon and filed a report or two in 2001. Somewhere, I have an RPG.net T-shirt, and I still wear it from time to time.

Yeah, that search function thing? That is the single worst frustration possible on the site. The inability to find relevant threads greatly lowers the level of discourse and encourages repeat threads.

I know read only one thing at RPG.net. The open page and I only read the first page. I'm sure I'm missing lots. Not worth my time to track it all down without search, though. Ugh.

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[info]locke61dv
2006-01-06 07:22 pm UTC (link)
Ultra 10! I had an Ultra 1 once, but it didn't do anything, just caught fire and smoked.

But yeah, most users don't use Tangency and those that do use it heavily, I'm guessing - seems ripe for a DB separation.

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[info]yeloson
2006-01-06 07:30 pm UTC (link)
I was wondering why rpg.net is always suffering so. That makes a lot of sense.

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[info]rpgactionfigure
2006-01-06 07:31 pm UTC (link)
It's the lack of search function that does it for me. Ever since they switched it off, my use of RPGnet has dropped of dramatically. And as Matt says, it only encourages a vastly increased number of repeat threads. If they found some way to start search again and get rid of Tangency, I'd be a much happier camper.

Cheers
Malcolm

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-06 07:33 pm UTC (link)
MALCOLM:

SHOW ME WHERE YOU GOT YOUR LIVEJOURNAL USER PIC NOW. THE FULL "BIG" VERSION. THIS IS MANDATORY. I MUST SEE IT.

-Andy

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[info]rpgactionfigure
2006-01-06 08:06 pm UTC (link)
It's a photo of an actual action figure of me that a friend made for the charity auction at our local con a couple of years ago. In fact, it's where I got my LJ username.

Here's the picture

Cheers
Malcolm

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[info]bar_sinister
2006-01-06 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Awesome.

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-06 07:39 pm UTC (link)
BTW, this rant isn't just for ranting sake. It all began when I was trying to reply to the Latest PTA thread in Open, talking about how in three weeks we're basically using PTA to run "Blue Planet the RPG". I'm looking forward to it. We'll probably going to make chars and set the stage in two weeks or so.

Finally, a chance to use that game. It's (Blue Planet, that is. PTA is always in my "Modular Gaming Box") been sitting on my shelf forever now. It's the only game that I still have left on my shelf, save Continuum and Dune (which will go to Jurgen later, Inshallah), that falls into my "I collected a game that I will never play" pile. Forcing that sim claptrap into something like PTA feels like breathing life unto a golem.

-Andy

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[info]bar_sinister
2006-01-06 09:26 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like a damn good use for it. I have wanted to play Blue Planet, but failed miserably the one time I tried. Writing short stories about it worked way better, but PTA sounds perfect. Let me know how it goes.

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[info]foreign_devilry
2006-01-06 10:33 pm UTC (link)
Andy, between you and me, we should find a way to play Continuum that doesn't suck.

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-07 12:33 am UTC (link)
Jonathan, I think the answer is almost disturbing in its simplicity:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: FALL TV PREVIEW GUIDE

The Continuum

Synopsis: Shelly Grant thinks she is being stalked. She soon discovers that her stalker is actually an evil time traveller bent on stopping her from achieving her secret destiny. She joins the society of time travellers known as The Continuum, and with her new team of three companions, each with their own mysterious histories and pasts, she sets out to uncover the secret plans of the shadowy Narcissists.

Produced and Directed by Joss Whedon and Matt Wilson.

---------------

The Continuum setting info was like the juiciest Hot Wings on the planet. Time to suck that setting off the bones and put it into a system that:

* Is far easier to play
* Brings up Frag as a central theme to be explored in the game, not as something to be recorded with an Excel spreadsheet.
* Lets us break the rules a bit in regards to How Far you can Travel vs your "Level" (ie "Let's go to Colonial France, and do it in two jumps instead of 200")

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[info]foreign_devilry
2006-01-07 12:44 am UTC (link)
And then after three seasons, Shelly Grant's badboy ex spins off into his own show, Narc: Anachrony, whose theme song is System of a Down's Fuck The System!

P.S. I agree with the Hot Wings and all your fix recommendations. In 5 years, we should license the rights. I still cry over what Continuum could have been, more than Exalted, more than In Nomine, more than Nobilis, more than any game in the history of roleplaying.

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[info]neelk
2006-01-07 05:03 pm UTC (link)
I don't think that Frag is the central element of Continuum. You could drop Frag entirely, and still have an awesome game.

The heart of Continuum is the Yet.

That's it. Your PC's Yet are the things about the future that you know, and which you personally have to make happen, up to and including engineering your own death and the deaths of everyone you love. It's predestination made horribly, horribly personal. What Continuum most needs is something like a Dogs-style town creation system, where you take a) the elements of your PCs' Yets and b) cool historical bits, and turn them into a situation that's ready to explode and which produces more Yet for next week's session.

It also needs a time combat system which players can understand, but like all mechanical problems that can be solved by porting to Heroquest. :)

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[info]severefun
2006-01-08 09:04 pm UTC (link)
It also needs a time combat system which players can understand, but like all mechanical problems that can be solved by porting to Heroquest. :)

Hot damn, that is such a good idea.

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[info]madmoses
2006-01-07 12:05 am UTC (link)
1. I played Blue Planet. The system is playable. The setting kicks ass. I want to play my character again.

2. I so want to play Continuum. Seriously. IIRC I had persuaded [info]amanofhats to run it at GenCon once (he said something like "I'll run it but I won't run it well"), but didn't push it.

3. I can't afford Dune at the moment. If you have another buyer, I've got no problem with not getting it.

4. I didn't visit rpg.net for a long time.

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[info]chris_goodwin
2006-01-06 07:51 pm UTC (link)
You have said it all. I couldn't care less about Tangency; I've browsed it a few times and not found any discussions there I care to take part in. I've felt similarly about other boards with Tangency-like forums; got burned out between the 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections and Janet Jackson's wardrobe malfunction.

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[info]judd_sonofbert
2006-01-06 08:47 pm UTC (link)
The end of the search function really turned it from my mind from a really crazy resource to merely the loudest gaming place on the internet. Now it is really just noise.

Fun and sometimes delightful noise but only noise.

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[info]mikegentry
2006-01-06 09:08 pm UTC (link)
The Tangency situation is utterly absurd. It blows my mind that anyone would get a paid account at RPGnet knowing that half their money pays for the bandwidth sucked up by Tangency.

It's like if you sign up for cable television, and the customer rep tells you, "Oh, by the way, you also get this hippopotamus. We'll bring it over when the technician comes to install your cable, and it will live in your backyard for as long as you subscribe. It's loud, and it smells bad, and a significant portion of your monthly bill actually goes toward the care and feeding of the hippo. You should also be aware that the hippo's proximity will cause problems with your signal reception, and occasionally cause you to lose service altogether. And yes, you'll still be billed for those times."

And you're like, "Uh...is there any way I can get the cable without the hippo?"

And she's like, "Sorry, no. It's a package deal."

Yeah. Sign me up.

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[info]jeregenest
2006-01-06 11:30 pm UTC (link)
I think your analogy is heavily flawed. RPG.net is an attempt at a virtual community. The way a great many participants decide to show that community is tangency. Tangency is as much of, if not more of a part, the community as the other forums.

Removing Tangency at this point would be like your cable company calling you up and telling you the were not longer offering cartoons. Anytime a network carried cartoons you'd just be getting static. Oh and cooking shows. And sports. And maybe anything dramatic. Matter of fact the only things you get are sitcoms and the news. Except when news was entertainment cause they don't hold to that.

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[info]neelk
2006-01-06 11:58 pm UTC (link)
I dunno Jere. I never read Tangency, so I have no particular opinion about it. A lot of the value of rpg.net for me was that there was a long history of conversation on open, and that it was searchable. That made memory and history possible in a way that's gone now.

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[info]jeregenest
2006-01-07 12:13 am UTC (link)
I'm the first one to admit that the lack of searchability is one of the leading facors for my not being that active on RPG.net. But I also would like to think I'm not arrogant enought to believe my needs for communit are more mportant than other folks needs for community.

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-07 12:01 am UTC (link)
Could be. Thing is, though, RPGNet only used to have like RPG Open and Business and like two other forums. Tangency was originally created as a place to keep all those "Happy Birthday!" threads (and later "Funny News", "My Life Sucks", "What is the best PC OS" etc). It inflated and grew from there.

So, looking at it as objectively as possible, it looks like when the site changed hands, it said "OK, we're a community site now, we're no longer just a place to talk about gaming". Which is pure evolution, I can dig that.

Thing is, looking at it in the context of history for that site, it looked more like a skin tumor that grew to be the size of a human being, and the human with that tumor drags it around with them wherever they go (perhaps even using a wheelbarrow).

I'd love to see them seperate the two server-wise so that they can continue to offer the community stuff without bogging down the site stuff (though I really wonder how many tangency folks have played RPGs in the past 5 years... well, sometimes I wonder that on Open, too, but that's another story :) ). Failing that, I'd love to just buy some space on a NetCache box, like a simple 300 gig vol, and create "RPGNET.ORG" or something, basically all about critical discussion and fun, without the stuff that's totally off the track.

-Andy

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[info]jeregenest
2006-01-07 12:17 am UTC (link)
I don't agree about it being a tumor, an aberration or something undesirable. I think many folks would regard Tangency as the logical outgrowth of the desire for commnity amongst gamers. And community means discussing more than the games we play.

The ideal situation is obviously technical here. But failing that I can't argue much with the decison that RPG.net made to sacrifice searchability.

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-07 12:17 am UTC (link)
and create "RPGNET.ORG" or something

Aw, fuck. Now my mind is spinning. Crap, last time I started thinking like this I made those Indie RPG Awards.

Hmmmmmmmmmm...........................

-Andy

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[info]mikegentry
2006-01-07 12:15 am UTC (link)
This is true for those users who have come in with Tangency and decided to make it their community. But Tangency represents a substantial drift away from what RPGnet originally used to be. And the extent of its bandwidth usage means that RPGnet is no longer very good at what it used to be, because of the system downtime and the lack of search feature and so forth.

Those of us who were with RPGnet from early on, and enjoyed it as a pretty lively forum dedicated to roleplaying, now have to settle for a functionally crippled forum dedicated to roleplaying with a gigantic social club attached to it. We didn't ask for the social club and it's a bit irritating that 1) we're asked to pay for it, and 2) we have to lose a fair amount of functionality because of it.

This isn't just a grognard thing, either. I think there are plenty of newer users who would be happy to have a working, functional forum dedicated to roleplaying, but who are ambivalent about the social club. They don't get a choice in the matter, however; they get the social club whether they like it or not, and the roleplaying forum is crippled because of it.

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[info]jeregenest
2006-01-07 12:20 am UTC (link)
I'd argue, as a fellow grognard (how many times did we have to recreate logins again) that tangency is exactly what I regard as the original mission of RPG.net and what drew me there. And this is as someon who hasn't posted or read it for yers. It serves an important part of community and deserves to be respected for that.

It shouldn't be an eiter/or here. Tangeny serves a purpose. A god forum (or forums) dedicated to other forms of discussion are a good idea.

I think RPG.net's greatest problem is its own success and the failure of its competitors (I for one miss Gaming Outpost).

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[info]bob_goat
2006-01-06 11:15 pm UTC (link)
Ass Clowns for DB admins. I get the same crap errors all the time too. I often wonder, is the box an Amiga and attached to the intraweb via someone's home cable modem?

I mean shit. Web hosting, even with large bandwidth needs, is cheap. Up the bandwidth. I see the cost they claim they need to run the show every year and I chuckle at the ridiculous number...

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-07 12:15 am UTC (link)
I mean shit. Web hosting, even with large bandwidth needs, is cheap. Up the bandwidth.

Actually, I'll defer to them on this one.

OUR sites are cheap. They're cheap because they're stored in hundreds on a single server, and 20+ servers are watched by one dude. Sites like RPGNET are unfortunately not cheap, because the space is large (prob doesn't break 5-10 gig, but still more than average), and more importantly bandwidth. Any given time there are hundreds of users typing, reloading, replying, opening several windows, etc.

A couple years back they were cheap, because they were on a server that had bunches of other sites. Then their domain host started locking them down for just causing too much pressure on the server: Simply :poof: taking the site down for hours here and there, or trying to charge them more. I believe that, in the end, they ended up having to buy their own server box dedicated to the forums. Those usually run $150-300 a month for med-bandwidth ones.

I do believe in their numbers. I just think that they're crap, considering that they could have tangency dumped on a slower low performance server, and still keep the two linked symbolically on the server side so that we wouldn't know the difference (though the performance would be different: Tang would be a little slower, etc).

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[info]bob_goat
2006-01-07 12:41 am UTC (link)
I was talking about at my office, not my personal site. I'm the webmaster among other rolls (adminstering to two in house servers and three off site) and I can bet dollars to donuts we have a much more complex issues, which we have little problem solving (except for when everything breaks at once of course).

Like you said, splitting the forum between two boxes would be an easy and cheaper solution. Put Tangency on one and the rest on another, if that is where the issue lies. One will more than likely be abe to be a less heft box.

There are plenty of reasonably priced solutions that cost half to three quarters what they always post in their whine and moan sessions. All it takes is a little bit of research and work to find the right answer to their obvious problem.

Andy I can't believe I qualified my skills in this post. I never do that. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

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[info]zigguratbuilder
2006-01-09 12:00 am UTC (link)
Ahhhh, I see. Yeah, that helps.

Hah, on qualifying your skills: Hey man, it's all good. It only counts when you're using it as leverage in a debate ("I'll have you know that I am fully qualified to speak on macroeconomics, as I was an assistant manager at McDonalds for 15 weeks"...) Actually, I don't even know what you really do to pay the bills, so it's all good.

-Andy

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[info]jeregenest
2006-01-06 11:26 pm UTC (link)
I feel that most anti-Tangency screeds in the past have been problematic because they attack the content, which strikes me as attempts to define community and I hate when others do that. But I agere, it would be ncie is RPG.net could get their act together and provide the proper technical support.

I think you'd find more gamers take more joy from tangency, ebcause of its ope community of lke minds, tha take from most other sections of the site. Least thats always been my impression, and I avoid tangency like the plague.

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[info]mikegentry
2006-01-07 12:19 am UTC (link)
My issue with Tangency is specifically not with the content. I enjoy many threads on Tangency, although I wouldn't pay for them. If Tangency moved to some other URL, I would probably continue to lurk there.

My issue with Tangency is that it actively hampers the functioning of the rest of RPGnet, which is what I (and others) really value the site for. If killing Tangency meant that we could have a search engine again, and that the daily Late Afternoon Server Crash would finally go away, then RPGnet would be something that I valued again, and I'd be willing to pay a membership fee for it.

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